Product Gym: How did you go from legal to product management?
Neil Shah: Law firm life wasn’t for me. After a short stint in New York, I took a leap and co-founded a startup. Even though we failed, the experience taught me several things and got me to where I am today. Taking that risk was a difficult decision.
Product Gym: So what was the risk?
Neil Shah: Lawyers are conservative and risk-averse by nature. Leaving a well-paying profession is difficult, but I wanted to work on a business concept first hand. For 18 months my cofounder and I had no salary and worked from a garage building an app for home services with a remote engineering team. We faced challenges that neither law school nor law firm teaches you to solve.
Product Gym: What did you learn from the experience?
Neil Shah: At a startup, you work on new problems and wear many different hats: engineering, marketing, partnerships, branding, sales, etc. Ultimately, my startup failed to get the traction we wanted but the experience made me attractive to other companies as I searched for my next role. I had a story from my startup battle, and I found someone who needed that exact experience at a fast-growing startup called Turn.
Product Gym: So, what was it like at Turn?
Neil Shah: I landed a position doing the partnership and privacy work which are heavily intertwined with legal. The environment was exhilarating. I worked hard to help our business development, product, and sales teams push the company forward. By proactively developing solutions to optimize efficiency that everyone in the company appreciated, I gained visibility and credibility.
Product Gym: Why leave the legal role?
Neil Shah: What bothered me was that I was not creating new value in my role. I had two options: stay with the legal team or join the product team. Although I thoroughly enjoyed working on business deals, I also thought about my goals in the next 5 years and being general counsel wasn’t one of them. I found my calling in Product Management.
Product Gym: What technical skills are required to get into Product Management?
Neil Shah: Product development is about delivering value to customers, and as Product Managers, we are given an extremely expensive and scarce company resource: engineers. When I interview Product Managers, I look for either past Project Managing experience (what have you shipped) or sharp technical problem-solving aptitude (design an efficient elevator algorithm). As a Product Manager, your success depends on your partnership with engineering, and it’s okay if you’ve never coded but you need to be able to understand the approach engineering takes to ensure the right problems are being worked on so as not to increase scope. It helps to relate to technical concepts.
Product Gym: What’s your advice to someone without a technical background?
Neil Shah: Product Managers transition from a variety of disciplines, and each will give you strengths and weaknesses in core Product Manager skills -- it’s about leveraging what you know and developing what you don’t know. For example, someone coming from Business Development will understand strategy and partnerships, but not engineering effort and project management. Someone from Engineering will be the exact opposite. If you’re interviewing for a Product Manager role, demonstrate potential.
Product Gym: How do you spend your time with engineering?
Neil Shah: It’s about shipping product, and as a Product Manager that’s what you’re responsible for. Sometimes you need to invest in infrastructure, and sometimes you need to get to an MVP to test a hypothesis. Depending on the needs, it’s a Product Manager’s responsibility to deliver. So, if it’s a highly experimental investment, we want to get to that MVP without significant investment. As a Product Manager, understand what’s being built and trust your tech lead. Product is 25% planning, 25% relationships, and 50% execution. If you’re new to an organization, invest in relationships and ask “why” a million times -- this will help you execute better and faster.
Product Gym: Do you use your legal experience in Product?
Neil Shah: Everyday. There's an art to Product using persuasion where structured arguments are important in large-scale projects. Lawyers will be familiar with this tactic as core to legal brief and argument. I’ve also worked on a number of complex data and privacy-sensitive matters where my background gave me an edge in collaborating with in-house counsel.
Product Gym: Would you say a good amount of tech companies are hiring in-house counsels right now?
Neil Shah: I do not have a pulse on the hiring environment, but product counsel is incredibly important in tech and will give you a great perspective on product management. I would say that the earlier stage you go, the less likely a startup would think they need a lawyer. For example, I was hired at a series D, 100 employees, and they were getting by with outside counsel. As they ramped on deal-making they needed in-house. If you are trying to go to an early stage company, see if you can work out a hybrid role and take the salary cut -- you’ll make it back in no time and be way happier for it in the long run.
Product Gym: Got it. For a lot of practicing attorneys right now, it sounds like you want to get in early, but what if you get in too early and you’re not even sure if the company would still be around after say 6 months?
Neil Shah: There are attorneys who passed on early Facebook opportunities -- but they will tell you there are hundreds of those opportunities, and 99% fail. My advice for early stage, look for a strong leadership team and make sure you buy into the vision. You're going to be living and breathing the startup, so you need passion to be successful.
Product Gym: When you do make the move, one of the challenges is compensation - did you find a difference in that area when you moved?
Neil Shah: Compensation will be less in the beginning from law firm salaries, but think of it as a long-term investment. Ask yourself what do you want to do in 5 years? Make every step towards that thing. Some options to consider: One, while you have a full-time job test the waters and try to build something on the side. I did this with Amply, my second startup. Two, move to a city that has tech opportunities -- I moved to San Francisco without a firm offer.
Product Gym: How did you go ahead and identify the right startup to transition into? It seems like there’s no sweet spot to get in.
Neil Shah: That first step is really hard, you will need to take a risk and someone needs to take a risk on you. If you’re at a company with a product organization, try to lateral into the organization rather than trying to get hired by a different company.
Product Gym: How can some set themselves up for success in Product?
Neil Shah: Developing products, whether at a startup or mature company, is exhilarating and rewarding. Be passionate about solving problems, curious about understanding the industry, and have an opinion but be open to new perspectives.
Product Gym: I believe it, I feel that every day. Okay, so last few questions. I know Product Managers are always learning, so do you have any books, blogs or podcasts you’d recommend to our readers?
Neil Shah: There are so many great Product Manager resources these days. Start with Ameet Ranadive on Medium, listen to the Startup Chat with Hiten & Steli, and you must absolutely read Dan Roam’s Back of the Napkin and Marty Kagan’s Inspired, which is the Product Manager’s Bible.
Product Gym: So you’ve been through a whirlwind of things, what do you think is next for you?
Neil Shah: Keep growing. I’ll try my hand at another startup someday, but I continue to grow as a Product Manager at Twitter -- in our own way, we get to work on mini-startups within the company with a phenomenal leadership team.
About Neil Shah:
Neil graduated from Johns Hopkins University with bachelor degrees in Computer Science and International Studies and from University of Michigan with a law degree. After practicing briefly with New York-based law firm Seward & Kissel during the financial crisis, Neil started a company. While his first startup failed, it helped him land a role as legal counsel to Turn, later acquired by SingTel for $310M. From those experiences, he co-founded, Amply, which helps over 4,000 nonprofits raise funding through corporate matching. He is now a Product Manager at Twitter leading initiatives on health, abuse, and publisher products.
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